I have been working on a prequel to Covenant of the Faceless Knights that is situated in the Realm of Ashenclaw setting and is an anthology of short stories about some of the characters from the novel. It tells a series of short stories at or around the same timelines and describes what events that person is experiencing, a decade plus before the novel takes place.
Reviewing the work, I find myself doing the same things as far as edits go and feel that I am growing as a storyteller. That being said, how much editing is too much? Whether you write novels, term papers, blogs or short stories, it does not matter. We all experience this and I deal with it each and every time I re-read a section of my work. I am not talking about grammatical errors as they are caught most of the time (not always) and sometimes there can be sloppy sentence structure that needs re-working, which I take care to fix as best I can.
I am talking about editing in the sense of the overall storyline. What can you add, what can be taken out and what is over-done. When you finish reading a chapter, do you sometimes feel like the author hasn’t given you enough information or that you have had enough already and the story needs to move on.
I find myself habitually and obsessively reviewing my work and ‘tweaking’ it here and there and figure that this is something that many writers have to overcome. I am my own worst critic I think and have several educated readers reviewing my work as well. They tend to talk me off the ledge when I feel that I have hit the wall, pick me up and dust me off, etc.
My experience lately is, while engrossed in the writing, I have been trying to relay information as organically as possible. This leaves me wondering if there is too much or too little information given in one chapter, etc. Most of the time it seems to work, but still begs the questions:
How much is too much editing?
How many of you go through multiple re-writes or re-wording during your edits and do you have any advice for the budding author?
Do any other writers out there review their work obsessively?
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You can never do enough editing! It's one of those chores that turns into a many-headed monster. Maybe I'm an obsessive too, but there is always something new to find that must be changed.
ReplyDeleteHowever, once the book is finished it must be published at some point. Like you, I cannot afford the services of a professional editor, but even they make mistakes!
Regards
I'm an author and an editor (very cheap!) and it's perfectly true that a few typos will ALWAYS get through, no matter how many times and by how many people the book is read by. It is definitely harder to edit your own work - you're too familiar with it and your eye can play tricks. But in general no-one minds a few minor errors. It's if they become extreme and start to spoil the enjoyment of a book that the grumbling begins.
ReplyDeleteDon't overedit your work. Check if a few times certainly, but as Nicholas says, you have to stop at some point. Don't tweak for too long - get your book out there!
Thanks for the responses! Nick, I absolutely agree with you that there is a certain obsession with editing and that it can lead to a touch of insanity. That being said, I have a few friends that tell me the same thing: Your book is done! Enough already!
ReplyDeleteStephanie, please send me an email with your editing costs to garyv@ashenclaw.com. I also agree that I am too familiar with my own work and find myself reading what I think SHOULD be there, instead of what is actually written. I am obsessive because I want to make sure that I am putting out the best possible product that I can provide for my fans. I hope that the hard work pays off down the line.... Thanks again for stopping by and please do so in the future!
What I absolutely love about Kindle publishing is the fact that I can easily do a quick fix edit for any errors that I spot at any point I want after publication. Bish bash bosh, job done. Much harder with a paperback, unless you have a lot of Tipp-Ex...
ReplyDeleteBut as for editing the actual content, I dunno. Sometimes I might change something that doesn't sound right, but I don't want to change the wording just for the sake of it if I can help it. But sometimes I find I have to do more severe edit work if I need to elbow in a bit of last minute plot movement. I try and avoid that if I can. Editing, I mean. Not plot movement. (I try and have a least a suggestion of that in there, somewhere..)
Craig, thanks for following the blog and for sharing some opinions! That first part about editing sounds very enticing, btw.
ReplyDeleteI completely understand about the wording issue. I go through this all the time: How can I say this more clearly? What am I really trying to say? And on it goes.... Last minute changes are never fun...plot movement, however, is kind of important. :)
Thanks again for sharing and stopping by. I look forward to more of your input in the future.
You know, I too tend to obsess over edits. I finally got some advice from a fellow writer that has helped me with this need to try to attain perfection. He relayed what his one professors in cinematography told them. "No artist ever looks at his canvas and says it`s perfect. He looks at it and says it`s as good as I can make it."
ReplyDeleteSo I try to make my books as good as my editor and I can make it and then let it go.
Every time I send in a MS to an agent, I always freak out. I KNOW I've missed something, so I go over the novel agian and again. It can get obsessive. I recently uploaded a novel to Amazon and Barnes and Noble as an ebook, and that has been nervewracking, too. I guess it never ends, really. You just finall have to say "it's good enough".
ReplyDeleteGreat Blog, by the way. I just discovered it through Twitter.
By the way, here is a link to my website if you want to check it out. My novel isn't hard fantasy like your series. It's fantasy "light" with different worlds/dimensions and unusal creatures, but no wizards and such. It's a middle grade, fast read with a bit of the campiness of 1950s comic books mixed in.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.grasslakepublishing.com
Thanks for commenting, V.L. and J.D.!
ReplyDelete@V.L., I think your fellow writer friend may be on to something! I tend to get that some advice, yet I ignore them. :) The cinematography professor had some words of wisdom there, too.
@J.D., 'Good enough' is probably how most authors present their work unless they are lucky enough to have a friends who are professional editors! I know I look at my work and am constantly tweaking it, though I am unsure if makes it 'better' rather than merely different. I also took a look at your site, Mr. English Teacher! BTW, feel free to join the site here and invite your students to explore the Realm of Ashenclaw as well. I am very conscientious of keeping my site clean of profanity! Take care, all!
I "beta test" my manuscript when I feel I'm close. Your audience will tell you if you're finished or not.
ReplyDeleteI reread my first published book the other and still found things to edit. I was tol by a writing teacher once that it's a sign of a good writer. Editing is as much art as the actual writing. If you edit something "out" make sure it isn't important to 1) the characterization or 2) a possible sequel.
ReplyDeleteOne other thing...save what you edit, it might come in handy later for future writing.
Elise Stokes and Deborah Rae Cota's comments are very good. If your adventure is complete, but you're not sure if timelines are in place, go through and every now and again make one word annotations as to what's going on. Is it fitting with the Table of Contents? Or, do you even have a TOC? If not, make one-it should help with timeline. After you do this, do you recognize any missing scenes,people,important events?
ReplyDeleteI write articles, and often find mistakes while test reading them on my mobile phone. The small space seems to help me focus.
Don't try to edit when you're tired or stressed.
Computers can easily fix grammer and even syntax, but your "story" is yours!
Let an unbiased person read the manuscript, or do the "beta testing".
Either way, you should let it go out to someone besides yourself! Good luck!
cancer.bellaonline.com/Site.asp
Elise, Deborah and Rann, thank you all for stopping over! I believe that letting someone else edit your 'finished' work is good, but the problem lies in 'when is it finished?' I always think I can do something better, so my ADD is probably kicking in, but at some point, I hand over the work to be read by another. Having another writing professional read the book is probably a good thing also.
ReplyDeleteI have notes everywhere for timeline issues. Doing a series like I am working on is a daunting task and not for the faint of heart! I have documents and notes everywhere! I have to re-read things all the time to double check names, places and events to make sure they fit in chronologically and are appropriate content for the current storyline.
All great points and thank you all for stopping over. I look forward to reading more posts in the future!
I understand what you are saying. Based on my experience, I would first suggest that there is a difference between editing and tweaking. I can tweak something forever, until I find myself changing the same words, over and over again. Second, there is something to be said for deadlines—when “enough already” really kicks in. But, there is also something to be said (reaching back to the typewriter days) for the desk drawer. If you have no deadline, letting something sit and marinate for a while will allow you to put fresh eyes on it later one. Finally, I guess there are different “levels” of editing, as when you look at a drop of water through a microscope and shift focus from one level to another. There is the flow of words. There is the clarity of movement within the plot. There is the problem of being true to your characters. Given the way you have created and described them, do their actions and speech make sense?
ReplyDeleteI think there is a difference distinguish between “readers” and an editor. An editor can definitely help with the mechanics. But his or her opinions on plot, character, etc. are just that—opinions. So, while it is great to have an editor, it is very helpful to have several really dedicated and knowledgeable readers whose opinions you value and can consider.
I am sure you already know all of this, otherwise you would not have gotten as far as you have. All the best in the New Year.
I think you have some valid points, William and thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts. Tweaking and editing are certainly two similar things. i for one, have begun a project, let it sit and gone back to it thinking of making major changes. I think that no matter how much you learn or have done in the past, there is always room for growth, so if you think you have advice, feel free to give it here! I am always up for learning and listening. Anyone who thinks that they know it all is only fooling themselves! Thanks again for sharing and have a great holiday!
ReplyDeleteBoth editing and revising are multi-step processes.
ReplyDeleteYes, I know exactly what you mean; even the greatest amount of editing never feels like enough sometimes, it is probably the perfectionist little voice in us urging for better. For me, final edits come when I feel that the story, or whatever it is I'm writing, cannot be improved upon any more. If only there was a magic potion or something for this knowing when to stop editing, we'd all probably be more relaxed, but what works for one person doesn't always work for another - to each his or her own!
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing, Mar! I appreciate the comments. And yes, the perfectionist in us all shines through, especially when we critique our own work. I have been trying to get my work to a certain point and then hand it to someone else to give me their opinion, then send it to the editor after. You can never have too many eyes looking over your work, right? I am starting to think that stopping editing is a skill! Take care and please stop back to share more thoughts with us.
ReplyDeleteI think you don't hit the "too much" window until you find yourself tempted to turn the piece into something very different. I'm on a 7th (or 8th) draft, and I still find stuff I should have fixed.
ReplyDeleteEssentially, any editing I initiate is not enough, and any initiated by others is too much.
I am going through the editing process with my second story right now, and like the rest of you, I always find something to change. That's one of the reasons I'm putting some money together and hiring an editor.
ReplyDeleteOne of Heinlein's rules is "don't edit (except to editorial comment)!" I think this is a little extreme, but I agree that you shouldn't edit your work in a vacuum. The little things that bother you are probably no big deal to an audience (who probably won't notice or care if you used the word "somebody" where you intended to use "someone"), and the things that confuse an audience are probably invisible to you. Once my manuscript is finished, I really don't do much editing unless someone says something. That said, a beta reader's comment recently inspired a full week of editing, and the story is much better for it.
I haven't really priced it out yet, but I don't expect hiring an editor to be too expensive. Don't rule it out until you've actually gotten some estimates! It's up to indie writers to start supporting a system of freelance editors that will help us generate quality work in the future.
Bill and N.V., thanks for stopping and commenting.
ReplyDeleteBill, I don't know about you, but I had a pretty solid idea about the stories I wanted to write, which is why I even entertained the process of publishing my work. But i can certainly understand what you are meaning with multiple drafts.
N.V., I couldn't agree more about finding an editor. I have seen some of the self-published stuff out there and some of it was not edited...at all. I felt that if I wanted to charge someone their hard earned money for my book, I at least wanted to give them the best product i could give. Is there some things I would change or re-word? Sure. Are there minor point of view shifts that I would like to modify? you bet.
That being said, I presented a professional novel and could not have done it without my 'beta-readers' and a solid editor. I cannot understate enough that a good editor can make or break your work. I just ran into a woman who is looking for clients and is doing a fantastic job on some of my short stories. Her website can be found here: http://www.ebook-ed.it/
Hope that helps!
I would probably be tempted to say that once the story is up and posted (or published) that the time for editing is done ... except that I had the misfortune of reading a published copy and finding out it was a pre-edited version, which I had to fix after the fact (before any copies were sold, thankfully).
ReplyDeleteSo. With THAT example in mind, I would say that it might just be a thing where you have to KNOW when you can't edited the work any longer. If all you do is tinker and tinker and tinker again, you'll end up with a pile of bits and an uncertainty of what to do with them. Edit until you start to worry that you're spinning your wheels in place, and that's when it's time to stop. Unfortunately, nobody will know that except you, which makes it a little harder to figure out.
J.M., thanks for stopping by to comment! Sounds like you got lucky on catching that one that posted!
ReplyDeleteI have experienced the editing 'bug' myself where I read a sentence a few times, re-worded it, edited some more and ended up back with the original one! Talk about spinning your wheels! Has this ever happened to you? I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.
Great blog, and great topic. My own process is...well, sporadic is the best word, I think. I, like you, edit my own work chapter by chapter, and I find that it's best to do it that way, and then when you hit road blocks, just go back three or four chapters and re-read it again with fresh eyes. It sort of keeps a round of self-editing going, before you send your manuscript to whichever editors you use, professional or not. The largest value in having an editor or similar person reviewing your work, though, is simply another set of eyes on your stuff. A good editor can take a book, and turn it from a diamond in the rough to a finely cut piece. The hardest part for me is, of course, taking the criticism.
ReplyDeleteAnd final editing is so damned painful! What a tedious process, haha.
Another thing that you hit on but didn't really go into detail about was "growing as a writer", which is another good reason to go back a few chapters. Your skill is always growing, and you don't want the beginning of your book to have a different tone than the end.
It sounds hokey, I know, but what I do is just put myself in the position of my character, and I try to see the world through their eyes. My imagination creates the setting, and all I do is relay what I'm "seeing" through their eyes. It also works for those pesky plot twists where you want something to be as real as you can make it. As a fellow fantasy writer, I know that realism is one of those things you try to court loosely, but it is something you have to include to keep people interested.
Anyways, great blog, I'll check out your book.
Great blog, and great topic. My own process is...well, sporadic is the best word, I think. I, like you, edit my own work chapter by chapter, and I find that it's best to do it that way, and then when you hit road blocks, just go back three or four chapters and re-read it again with fresh eyes. It sort of keeps a round of self-editing going, before you send your manuscript to whichever editors you use, professional or not. The largest value in having an editor or similar person reviewing your work, though, is simply another set of eyes on your stuff. A good editor can take a book, and turn it from a diamond in the rough to a finely cut piece. The hardest part for me is, of course, taking the criticism.
ReplyDeleteAnd final editing is so damned painful! What a tedious process, haha.
Another thing that you hit on but didn't really go into detail about was "growing as a writer", which is another good reason to go back a few chapters. Your skill is always growing, and you don't want the beginning of your book to have a different tone than the end.
It sounds hokey, I know, but what I do is just put myself in the position of my character, and I try to see the world through their eyes. My imagination creates the setting, and all I do is relay what I'm "seeing" through their eyes. It also works for those pesky plot twists where you want something to be as real as you can make it. As a fellow fantasy writer, I know that realism is one of those things you try to court loosely, but it is something you have to include to keep people interested.
Anyways, great blog, I'll check out your book.
Thanks for stopping by and commenting as well as your kind words about the blog. I appreciate the support.
ReplyDeleteI have found that chapter by chapter seems to be the easiest for me to catch grammatical errors or context errors. A good editor will catch these and may see some errors in continuity, too. I find that a good core of 'proof readers' is the best way to go. Find people that enjoy reading that are friends that will tell you their opinions.
Writing from a perspective is not hokey at all! I think that is a sign of a passionate writer that wants to portray emotion as best they can. Realism has its place, even in fantasy, because a reader can only suspend their belief for so long. If you stray too far from reality by making everything unbelievable, you may lose your audience! I have learned one thing recently--Don't beat your readers over the head with information--if you hint at something, believe that your reader is smart enough to understand your point.
In conclusion, we are both passionate about our work I think and that will go a long way with your fan base, because if you don't care, how can the reader, right? Thanks again for the conversation and feel free to stop by again and comment in the future!
Well, I've always believed the adage that good enough is never good enough--you edit till it's perfect, and when it is, you'll know!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment, Jenny! I tend to agree with you, but there are some of us who are our own worst critics--meaning that it can always be better in our own eyes. That being said, there comes a time when enough is enough. Thanks for stopping by to comment and I look forward to seeing more in the future!
ReplyDeleteThe problem for me is that Editing is my favourite part. I like the pat-on-the-back I give myself when I've whittled something down that started out way too long... however I can take it too far, and my biggest issue lies when I begin editing when I write.
ReplyDeleteI get distracted and go into editing mode and then get lost in the manuscript. I can't do that anymore or I get into trouble... I end up two hours later with a shorter short story than I had before when I was trying to add more words.
ME. All the time. Problem is i have ADHD, so it doesn't always translate well, i'll be in the middle of it all and forget where i'm at. Lucky me i'm getting better i have notebook to write things down in, but it REALLY isn't easy.
ReplyDeleteA friend of mine is an English & Literary teacher. I will simply say the same thing he said to me when I posed the same question to him. A great work of literacy will never appear to be finished by the creator. The key is to figure out the moment when it stopped becoming better, and instead you started obsessing over making changes. If you figure that out, make sure to let every writer across the world know, because each of them is still trying to figure out when that moment takes place.
ReplyDeleteI encourage all writers to join a critique group. The members may not have better language skills than you do, but they can tell you when things don't make sense, when they want more internal reaction from the characters, when the story contradicts itself, when the action slows too much ... A decent critique group is essential. That said, when all you're doing is tweaking a word here or there, it's time to stop and publish!
ReplyDeleteI have used beta readers and paid editors, and I feel that at some point as far as the story goes you must say, I like what I have. Readers have so many different opinions and while they are very valuable, it is ultimately up to you to say this is the story I want to tell - it is finished.
ReplyDelete